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Post by Silathin Starseeker on Jun 23, 2009 21:14:14 GMT 1
With the art of inscription and also the subtle but latent feel of magic around kaldorei lands and in the culture maybe the paper is slightly imbued to remain as long lasting as the kaldorei themselves?
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Post by Feralan on Jun 30, 2009 8:49:50 GMT 1
There might be some subtle nature-magics to make paper more resilient, perhaps. And I agree that the more formal or complex something is, the more lilkely it may be written down. Important historical accounts, for example, or collected intelligence about certain types of enemies, or complicated crafting techniques. But most knowledge will likely be passed down orally. What about teachings of faith and druidism? Sil, you think the Sisters would write theirs down, can you explain why? For druids, I think little would be written down. But, I'm firmly in the "you can't truly explain it, only experience it" camp when it comes to druidism. How might Kaldorei feel about books? How do your characters feel about books? Are there any who think books are a throwback to the bad old days when the cursed Highborne were hell-bent on dominating and ruining the world? Is there a divide between those who think nothing truly worth knowing can be written down, and those who think it's important to preserve as much as possible as objectively as possible?
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Post by Elendrel on Jun 30, 2009 18:51:01 GMT 1
Its probably about time I take part in this musing, considering books are a important part of El's character to me. Firstly I wouldn't have thought much would have been written down by the kaldorei as with their immortality there where always those who could recall past information as they had been around at that time as well. But there are a lot of bookshelfs, librarys ect that the night elves use so maybe they saw books as a means of spreading information, the amount of information that could be put in a book would take a while to orally tell someone, so with a book a person could view this information at their own time. It is also possible that this was a way of passing information around if different groups of night elves where far apart from one another, I'm not sure how whether all night elves leaved close to each other or where spread out slightly over Azeroth when it was a whole continent (correct?) before the sundering *shrugs* just speculating. I would like to think that books where also a pass time, I assume the kaldorei would relax as well in times of peace, or even every so often. And all that time around would surely have allowed some great tales to be formed, whether truthful or fictional. For El books are a source of information yes, but I prefer him to read more as entertainment and as a means of taking his mind off of serious matters. I could write another page at least on how they appeal to El and why he reads them but I'll save it for IC if it ever comes up. Oh and lastly Sil you touched on inscription, I'll leave my opinions on that for now, but I would be interested in peoples views on that regarding kaldorei and how the process of it works exactly (part from gathering and milling the herbs into ink I think we all get that part) as the profession isn't exactly explained very well in my opinion, at least from what I have read/seen, thus making it a bit harder to bring up IC. Maybe a future monthly musing could be around this? ;D
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Carindia
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Post by Carindia on Jun 30, 2009 20:00:52 GMT 1
I would imagine the average Kaldorei book might detail something rarely used or needed, and so might be forgotten in the mean time.
With regards to using it as a leasure activity, I would imagine that was where the Kaldorei soeciety might have split opinions, with some of them regarding it as a more useful method of entertainment which does not require other people in order to be provided, as well as pinning the story down so it cannot change as it is passed on, but rather the origional form is kept too.
Other Kaldorei, ones I would personly imagine as the more traditionlist and anti-Sindorei ones, would view this as a bad method of preserving knowlage and prefering it to always be passed down by word of mouth, athough large sagas seem unlikley to not be written down.
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Post by Caelith on Jun 30, 2009 20:13:33 GMT 1
I agree in both that most likely most things would be passed down orally in kaldorei society, but also that the most important historical happenings and old stories have been written to books as well. Also, there most likely has been those kaldorei too, that have given their lives (or at least some of it) to studying some thing, like plants, or animals or monsters, and have wanted to preserve that information and it to be reached by other kaldorei than the closest ones to that person too. At least human memory is very failing, and even if someone would be present somewhere, it doesn't say he can exactly remember it after 10 years. Most likely kaldorei have a better memory at least in some accords, but also they might not remember everything exactly after 300 years. And somehow enchanted or treated paper or paperlike substance is most likely what kaldorei use, at least for important writings, so that it stays good in the open houses, that are more suspect to the changes of weather and environment, for long times. I don't think kaldorei's would have much "fictional" writings, or light reading. Most of their stories, poems and songs are most likely passed on orally. Maybe there is some stories that have been written down, and some kaldorei poets that also write their poems to books, but I would think it is not as common as with humans. Then, to answer Fer's questions: Caelith was raised mostly in woods, and as child had little contact with other people than her family and relatives. There was no books at her home, and all she learned of hunting, skinning and leatherworking was passed to her orally or teached by watching and teaching. She was very suspecting of books and saw them as something only wiser and older people than her would use and read untill she met a draenei sage to who books were very close and important. After that Caelith has been exploring a bit of the worlds of books too, and now sees them as something that could be both dangerous things and important tools for keeping knowledge and learning from. She has not had any touch of any kind of "light reading", so she could not understand books as a way to relax or as entertainment. Would be interesting sometimes to speak about that with someone too, and let her maybe explore that part of the world of books sometime
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Azsunia
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Post by Azsunia on Jun 30, 2009 22:03:12 GMT 1
I personally don't know a thing about night elvish lore so I dont like to get into such discussions. However I believe that is sort of a subject that should be left to each one's imagination. Just because one might view Night elves in a certain way, that does not mean another should view the same way, this in terms of books for example. Books are a great way of extending the intelect and knowledge. I don't think that even a Night elf would be born knowing how to read or to write without ever touching a book, or am i wrong?
This just to hence that no, my characters do not view books as a step backwards in time. Both of them live in Darnassus, so if books are a step backwards then what living in a city would be?
I personally don't think that every Night Elf out there is a vicious beast that lives in a tent with feather made clothing, that wakes up at dusk to hunt a dear and chew of from his corpse to fill up his/her stomach like an animal would do. I don't think that *all* of them ignore Writing, poetry or even music that are often writen down on books. But thats only an opinion of course.
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Post by Silathin Starseeker on Jul 1, 2009 11:33:19 GMT 1
My thoughts on the use of books in kaldorei society I drew from how books and writing were used in our world as well (before the dark medieval ages and banning of "knowledge"). Besides, even if kaldorei live as long as they do, memories are flawed as well as when someone does die through other means, that means a lot of knowledge is lost. Having books is an extra way of passing on that knowledge and yes, it is a good hobby too How kaldorei view books.. As a greater whole I think books have a great place of respect because I view all kaldorei as respecting knowledge and history. Books carry voices of the past and are a thing from that. NOT being a step backwards in time but books are longlived as well, especially if treated carefully, and what they contain is precious as it is thougths and words from another learned kaldorei. And yes, as Sunia mentions, learning to read and write properly do require text and book as well so it is vital there. Sure book can be changed with scroll or writing in dust on the ground but it is in principle the same. Some more feral inclined kaldorei may not use books for the same and a great minority may even dislike them but that is when we go out in the more extreme subcultures of the society and not something I would count when looking at the greater whole of the race. Sil's view on books was to begin with almost a revered view. She is not an intelligent character and does not understand musings and theories as such. She reacts on instincts and feelings, what she can see and touch and experience first hand instead. This has grown more towards disinterest because they are simply too complex in many ways (more pictures please!). Stories and legends is something she holds great interest in. Although she does prefer stories to be told at gatherings in the old way she does also read stories when she finds them and finds a calm moment because they allow for the private small daydreams to escape from the more harsh reality once in a while. The Romance Novel is a prized and much worn secret book she has, kept hidden from even her sister Briefly about the art of writing and inscription; I look at it much like the art of calligraphy (spelling?) from asia, especially in ancient times, where it becomes a form of art and not just writing. You could spend ages contemplating a kanji and those with the proper earned respect and standing could be asked to design new ones even if there might be other similar ones in excistence that just did not convey the exact same meaning. Guess why especially the Chinese language has so so many Inscribing itself of course is more than just that but that would be the basics. Then there are the subtle imbuing of the characters with essence to make them have some form of "power". Looking at chinese superstition again, they make many uhm.. papers they hang up to ward off evil spirits and similar. The power lies in the creation of them and believing in that it works. I think that would be the basis as well but at the same time, WoW is a world of magic, it is based on that in pretty much everything, so I would attach some form of magical imbuing to it as well, but at very subtle levels and especially for the kaldorei with their history of magic.
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Post by Feralan on Jul 3, 2009 8:50:44 GMT 1
I think there's a lot of room for different views of books and book-learning in Kaldorei society. Some may have no use for them and may not even be able to read, some may be scholars and librarians painstakingly collecting and tending treasure-troves of literature. Most probably fall somewhere in the middle.
As for inscribing, maybe it draws on the natural properties of the herbs used to make the inks, a little like alchemy does. I don't have an inscriber, but as far as I'm aware all herbs from a certain level range produce the same ink(s)? In RP terms, I'd probably detail that a bit differently, i.e. if you write a scroll of strength you may use ink from a herb known for its strengthening properties, and other inscription products may have obscure associations with the properties of certain herbs as well. Although, how does one roleplay glyphs? Are they an IC mechanic? Where/how does one carry them?
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Post by Silathin Starseeker on Jul 3, 2009 9:53:29 GMT 1
Seal! That's the word for the paper thing I was trying to describe..
Where to carre the glyphs? They could be attached to the armour somehow, although I do not think they would be very lasting in that fashion, or they could be folded and then carried close on your person like you would wear a talisman or something. Not just crumpled and stuff in a pocket but perhaps respectfully placed in a special pouch in the belt or carried in a string around the neck, could even be in special pockets on your clothes or armour.
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Carindia
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Post by Carindia on Jul 3, 2009 10:15:34 GMT 1
The glyph interface and the manner in which glyphs have to be written over in game would suggest to me that it is come kind of charm or necklace in which you semi-permanantly fix the glyphs you wish to use. The charm could then use the same shape and design with the in-game one, and the glyphs are somehow transfered from the parchment to the interface.
If you still had to use a lexicon of power in order to fix them, I would have suggested placing the parchment infront of glyph area on the charm, then pressing it to the lexicon of power, causing the glyph to be transcribed off the parchment and onto the recieveing areas of the charm.
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Post by Feralan on Jul 23, 2009 11:10:29 GMT 1
The last topic has run dry, so here's the next.
Monthly musings #4: Moonwells
Just what effects do they have on the Kaldorei? In WC3 they were the "farm" type of building for their faction, and they could also restore health and mana to nearby units. How do we translate any of that into our RP? Could someone spend time in meditation at a moonwell and not require sustenance while doing so? Could the blessed water mend small injuries on its own? Would these effects apply to non-Kaldorei as well?
We also know that the water purifies, and as "liquid fire" it burns away corrupted things. Could anyone call on those qualities, or does it take a priestess to utilize the waters properly and create the "liquid fire" from it?
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Post by Silathin Starseeker on Jul 23, 2009 12:17:51 GMT 1
Moonwells. That's an unusual topic, but a good one.
I think that the Moonwells have a restorative effect on their surroundings, in terms of regaining energy both mental and spiritual. They may aid in healing wounds but not in the "be healed" spell type of way, more subtle and long term in aiding to heal wounds properly and somewhat faster than normal.
I think it might be possible to spend long times by Moonwells and not have a need for sustenance due to their replenishing nature, and that the water of them may temporarily remove feelings of hunger but eventually I think that proper food would be needed, although much later than usual.
I do not think that Moonwell water is a portable napalm ability. Yes it is a "holy water" but I do not think it is feasible to just turn on the tab and fill 100 jars with the water and chuck them at the enemy. It takes away the magical feeling of it if everyone would be able to run around with moonwell water in a bottle for those special moments. This view is from the point of telling a good story. Technically I do not see the problems with it except if the water might lose the "holy fire" touch over time if not treated specially and being transported in specially prepared containers/vials.
I do not think that the Moonwells are a priest specific area. Actually, I think that if the Moonwells (creation, maintaining etc.) fall under any playable wow class then I would call it druidic instead. My reasoning behind this is because they are very very strongly tied to nature in a much higher degree that The Sisterhood exhibits. If I remember correctly it is also druids that send you on those moonwell water quests in the early night elf quests?
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Carindia
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Post by Carindia on Jul 26, 2009 0:25:56 GMT 1
I'd basicly agree with Sil, but moonwells in WC3 where definatly being used to heal wounds but it took mana and they only regenerated at night. This would make me assume that there is some easy way the water can be treated in order to make it have heaing propities, but such a way drains the moon aspect out of the well, causing it to only have a limited amount of power before it needs 'recharging' by the light of the moon.
This same manner of treatment of the water might also mean that it gives sustinance - certainly in WC3 it suggests that this is the case from them being the resource structure. This leads me back to a previous musing about food, making me wonder if infact the apprent lack of Kaldorei foodstuffs is because they don't normally need much, if any in order to retain sustinance, but rather gain the majority of it from moonwells.
And yes, the moonwell quests in Teldrassil are from the druids, athough I think they're more of a general Starlight Kaldorei thing, more than a specific proffesion.
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Lana
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Post by Lana on Aug 6, 2009 2:55:57 GMT 1
The moonwells hold the waters of the Well of Eternity, the ancient source of magic that has wrought so many horrors upon our world.
The druids take advantage of its properties, and the Sentinels revere the wells as shrines to Elune, but sorcery is forbidden to all. --- Tenaron Stormgrip So we know that the Druids "take advantage of its properties" which I assume would be the slow, restorative power we see in WC3. Or druids are leatherclad mages, who knows Which also brings up anoher points... a High/Blood Elf can feel the same effect when near a Moonwell as if they had the Sunwell restored - high level of arcane energy. Dunno how restorative that is About the "liquid fire" thing... I think it'd be hard to manufacture: perhaps it's a distillment of Moonwell water? Or think of it as roseoil: you need tons of rosepetals just for a few spoons.
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Post by Yenlui Starwind on Aug 6, 2009 11:21:19 GMT 1
Essentially one could view the moonwells as part of a much larger system, they are not individual sites but interlinked yet not dependant on each other. One could also conclude that as they contain a portion of water from the well of eternity they are part of a continent-spanning magical buffert system, after all.. they don't appear until after the sundering.
But how? and above all why? Well, Nordrassil was created to absorb and contain the power of the new well, and drawing upon the laws of science: you can only fill the bucket untill it's full.. thus creating a need for a mechanism that slowly siphons away the power of nordrassil, maintaining balance.
Enter the Kaldorei... at the core, the Kaldorei's immortality is tied to Nordrassil, without the tree they have very long lifespans but are ultimately mortal. With the world tree alive and healthy it directs exsess energy from the well to the kaldorei, thus empowering their immortality.
So what about the moonwells then? Well, it is highly plausible that the moonwells are part of the same system but tied to the well directly instead of nordrassil. We know that they have a number of properties and for some reasons these properties work better on kaldorei than other lifeforms. We know that they exclude magical energy into their surroundings, saturating the ground with it. (explaining the existence of Fey dragons around moonwells, they should be around everyone lorewise but are there on just a few spots IG, as they absorb and disperse magical energy that has built up to dangerous levels.)
As such, one must conclude that the moonwells are vital to the Kaldorei, since they exclude the energies from the well of eternity wich frankly this species have been saturated with their entire existence. without the well and/or moonwells it is entirely possible that kaldorei would suffer from the same withdrawal issues as the Sin'dorei, possibly worse.
Now, to the trixy part of the Godess. There are a whole lot of general wishy-woshy statements about the wells being blessed by the Godess, so we have to infer that this is indeed true with no evidence to support a claim for it to be otherwise. This should thus be the reason for A: Various Holy properties such and clensing, healing and smiting! ;D B: Certain spiritual effects from residing close to them but I guess this could also be attributed to the inherent Faith of the Kaldorei, communion with one's deity is afterall spirtitually restoring on it's own.
So to conclude I guess that yes, due to the inherent magical nature of the Kaldorei they probably could gain basic sustenance for a short period from a moonwell and exposure to it's proximity and/or waters would probably have restoring/regenerative effects. though I do think that the effect would be much lessened for any other species as they lack the intimate history with the well of eternity that the kaldorei have. though Sin'Dorei, sharing ancestry and basic fysiology with the Kaldorei would probably react almost like the kaldorei to the exposure to moonwells.
Aaand.. I feel I got a bit dreailed a couple of times in this thread.. oh well.. i hope I make sense at all. ;D
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